Cassel vs. Thigpen … Thursday Cup O’Chiefs

All I have to say is
I hope Thigpen gets a better than a Fair chance
after all he earned it he was after all our only bright and shining star last year with little more help no telling where would have finished 2008 season

Amen

“Consider all these numbers as simply more logs for the fire that will surely burn in the coming months.”

My guess is that we’ll see that fire burning this morning, right here.

lol well, the Chiefs have a couple hopefuls there at the QB position. that in itself is very good news. They’ve both got there work cut out now. I hope they can stay healthy!

[...] Cassel vs. Thigpen … Thursday Cup O’Chiefs [...]

Butler,

“I hope Thigpen gets a better than a Fair chance
after all he earned it he was after all our only bright and shining star last year”

Really? Pro-Bowler Tony Gonzalez, anyone?

I don’t know….I just don’t know. Reading this…..I almost think we should not have bothered to get Cassel. Of course if we hadn’t then we probably would not have had all that fun with Denver & Cutler self destructing…so for that reason alone it was worth it. Now the time is coming when the Chiefs will make a decision on who is our starter. We all know it will be Cassel….but should it be Cassel? I just don’t know. Just what we need….a team coming off a 2-14 season very likely headed for a QB controversy.

If Cassel plays well and we win half our games or better and he does not get hurt….then we will not have the dreaded controversy.

If Cassel gets hurt and Thigpen comes in and plays as well or better….we will have controversy.

If the Chiefs lose a mess of games under Cassel then we will have controversy.

Accuracy is everything. It’s what made Trent Green great during those 5 years and a moderate-at-best receiving corps. It’s what separates Cassel from Thigpen right now (but who’s to say in the future). Without accuracy you have more drive killing incompletions. Think of the Barry Sanders effect: He had a great average, but all the 0 and -1 yard runs killed drives…

Unless Thigpen can improve his accuracy, Cassel is the man and I think he’ll keep his job even if he struggles. I don’t see Haley and Pioli as guys who waver back and forth. They won’t make the change until they are confident Cassel is NOT the man.

I’ve spent too much time on this one…so I’m not going to debate it much. I really can see both sides.

I think Cassel will be our starter…and should be. That’s just my opinion.

I just hope that whoever is out there, that the fans will get behind them and support them. The VERY last thing this team needs is for the hometown fans to be booing our QB…or calling for his head after a few bad throws or an INT.

Just consider our team extremely lucky that we HAVE two guys that could start. Not many teams do.

Enjoy the debate today. It should be a hot one!

My guess would be that by the end of the preseason this question will for the most part be worked out.

I really hope that Thiggy is the man. If Bowe can remember how to catch and Mark/Devard/Bobby show signs of life, then Thiggy should be the way to go. Cassel doesn’t even come close to having the talent with the Chiefs as he had with the Patriots. I’m not dogging on my guys, it’s just the truth. Tyler has experience with this team and they know how to catch his throws. This has been seen in practice. We’ve all read about how Cassel throws one way over the head of Bowe or it lands in the dirt right at the feet of a reciever. I think if Cassel doesn’t show any improvement in camp, on game 1 the first thing that will be heard from the sideline is, “Thiggy……..You’re up!!”

Unless he gets hurt Cassel will be the starter for at least half the season…..no matter how he does. Count on it.

I hope Cassel stays the starter throughout….because if he doesn’t it will mean the Chiefs are doing very poorly or Cassel is hurt…and I don’t want either of those.

If I was a coach taking over this team and had TWO good-young,tough QB’s, WOA !
They both also compare in the fact, that they work together and in either case little things don’t bother them.
This combination is HUGE.

Are there any stats on how many receivers the QB’s utilized? I suspect if TG is taken out of the mix, Thigpen’s numbers take a dive. Hey, take Randy Moss out for Cassel.

My guess is the New England offense moved the ball around more than the Chiefs last year. I’m curious if there are stats showing Cassel may have a better grasp of an offense and finding an open receiver.

BobGretz, nice use of the 67 card of Coan…but for variety sake, the 1960 Fleer of Curley Johnson would have been cool…

Agree Uncuffed. Its all about accuracy. Thigpen needs major improvement in that area.

His senior yr in college he was able to have a 64% completion percentage, but for a college career has a 53% completion percentage. If he wants to be an nfl starter, he needs to be above 60%.

Tyler came out #54 last yr in completion percentage for passers….and the only guy he did better than that threw for at least 1700 yrds was Jamarcus Russell.
https://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=PASSING_COMPLETION_PERCENTAGE&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2008&Submit=Go&qualified=false&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=2

I saw Mike Martz on NFL Network going on about how Cassel folded like a cheap suit when the defenses blitzed him. Yet according to these stats, his accuracy against the blitz is the exact same percentage as when the defense didn’t blitz.

The big thing I see is Cassel is better with his completion percentage, but I am concerned with the number of sacks he took last season. I do believe both QB’s were working behind patchwork offensive lines however. I would say Cassel will be given every opportunity to win the job with Thigpen getting the chance to push him to the maximum. I would say Thigpen should work hard this year and learn all he can from these coaches. As if Cassel does well then Thigpen will become trade bait for next years draft choices.

How about these numbers 11 and 1. Says it all. Cassel was on the field for all 11 of the Patriots wins. Thigpen got one win over the mighty Raiders.

Does anyone remember all of Thigpen’s passes that landed at the feet of his receivers…5 yards from the intended receiver…over the receivers head in the end zone. If Thigpen is on the field for the Chiefs in 2009…it will be because we are headed to 2-14 again. With Cassel we could get 5-8 wins.

I want to see both QB’s on the field doing some form of the wildcat, How about hearing Thigpen to Cassel for the touchdown

Cassel 73-270-2 td
Thigpen 62-386-3 td

Can either one of these guys take the ball for an end around or any trick plays if we do a Wild-Nittany-Lion formation?

I seem to remember far more of Tigpens passes coming up short, more so than over throws. I could never decide weather it was a lack of arm strength or inaccuracy, I attribute some of it to him being flushed outside, and having to throw on the run so much. I’m pulling for Thigpen, but Lets face it, Tony G bailed his ass out several times, by taking the ball away from the defender, lets just say that Thigpen got his share of “the ball bouncing his way” last season, his int numbers are a bit askew imo.

You gotta love Thigpens enthusiasm and desire, and the Boy’s got some quick’s!

May the best man win!

Very good information. Bob, I’d like to see you take it a step forward. Last year Thigpen’s productivity within a game diminished as the game went on. His QB rating was very high in the 1st quarter and very poor in the 4th quarter, declining in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. I’d be interested in seeing how this played out for Cassel.

Additional note: a 4th player has chimed in suggesting this year’s OTA’s were tougher than last year…Brandon Flowers (per the recent Red Zone Podcast).

The accuracy says it all. Thigpen has a lot going for him, but accuracy is difficult to teach. Not saying he can’t learn, but right now, that’s why he is number 2 on the depth chart. Cassel probably will struggle early. We play Baltimore and the entire NFC East during the first half of the season. One tough defense after another. Hopefully the fans will be patient with Cassel…..hopefully Cassel doesn’t get killed DeMarcus Ware, Haloti Ngata, Albert Haynesworth, Trent Cole…….

To me that is the reason the chiefs haven’t sign Cassel to a long contract yet. They may be waiting to see if he is in fact better than Thigpen . That being said Thigpen needs to prove he can play under center . Both Qbs have a lot to prove yet

Well Bob finally in your article you say Cassel had the benefit from players & Coaches . I hope your long winded fan on here reads it.

“…say Cassel had the benefit from players & Coaches . I hope your long winded fan on here reads it.”

I’m hoping Bob that you publish a Bottom of the Bird Cage - July 2nd edition so we can have another discussion topic - as we fear we’ll get numerous posts from said long-winded fan who’s already filled up previous blog discussions at length on today’s topic. LOL

Bob G

Bert Coan aka our boy ‘Elroy’, pride of Texas and former KU teammate of John Hadl, Curtis McClinton and an incoming freshman 1961, Gale Sayers.

That’s the second time of late that you’ve used a 1967 Topps football card of a Chiefs player - it must have been your favorite year…too.

Stars of your PITT Steelers thence? No, not many - JR Wilburn, Don Shy and…hope, although they did have the guy was referred to by NFL Films as a “hairy knuckled @#*!”, LB Bill Saul.
_____________________________

Tyler Thigpen vs Matt Cassel

No winners only losers one: the Chiefs. I suspect that in an offense will be tailored to the former “Patriot wayer” (his GM too same) and a coach who believes he can walk on water but who’ll discover instead that he’s merely overly excited & in fact is raining on his own parade/self, Cassel will go ’splat’ upon the canvas (gridiron floor) the 2009 expressionistic art the Chiefs football season.

Promises spring left in the wake the onslaught of fall, Thigpen will not get the opportunity Cassel will likely, despite said … but perhaps that is just as well - ’search’ & ‘check’ will slip, then stumble & yes also fall vis a vis an device their own making: “the Patriot Way”.

Now selecting with the first overall pick in the 2010 NFL Draft, the Kansas City Chiefs select…

The Chiefs paid big bucks and draft picks for Cassel so he is the man unless he flops like Brodie’a first year as the man under herm. Then Thigpen gets a shot. Both have the same issues - OL has to hang on one more year, Albert and maybe Waters are only NFL starters on the line and do not forget receivers. “no hands” Bowe, no Tony G, and the rest are question marks. Name your all time favorite QB and ask yourself, would you want to see him with the Chiefs offense, probably not.

A lack of critical accuracy i.e. who knew where the ball was going location-wise, the inability to play under center and no TG to wet-nurse him spell the bench for Tyler T.

Would Todd Haley let Chan Gailey use Tyler Thigpen and LJ in the backfield at the same time with Matt Cassel?
Given Thigpen’s running, passing and receiving skills, it might be useful to sow confusion in the defense at a critical time.

“Both have the same issues - OL has to hang on one more year, Albert and maybe Waters are only NFL starters on the line and do not forget receivers.”

No faith in Goff eh? Will Ghiachuc be an upgrade or benchwarmer as compared to Niswanger?

SG

Regards “a 4th”, practices “tougher” etc., etc., food for thought:

1) Herm’s 53 still be > > 4 - why even those 49 remaining aft. Rin addeth nee sayeth: were an additional 8 developmental players (plus several more came & went), as well those too IR, NFB and PUP, so forth and so on.

2)Tougher is a ‘chancy’ thing: Vermeil was tough- he was so tough the players were going to mutiny in STL…once Weepy Dick was put in his place by the players the Rams went to & ‘won’ a Superbowl.

For every Vince Lombardi (and there was only one) came aft the pretenders, legion: a Bill Parcells among them, now a poor man’s Bill, ‘check’… it will be a matter the fools checkmate if you play chess as you claimed afore, reference the Chiefs 2009 flop.

Tracy,

I think that’s a great idea. There was nothing more exciting last year than Thiggy lined up as a receiver or the WR option that Bradley threw him for a TD.

I hope that Haley sees the brilliance of Gailey’s mind and keeps him on a very long, very loose leash.

I doubt any defense prepared as hard for the Tyler Thigpen led Chiefs than they did for the Matt Cassel led Patriots.

At least this gives us something different to bet on. Instead of the same old….”in which game do you think Brodie will get knocked out for the season”?

Best case scenario… Cassel starts 4 games and plays lights out. Gets a minor injury and must sit for the next 5 games (groin pull or something). Thigpen comes in and wins every game and plays out of his mind. Let Thigpen finish the season to evaluate him and then get at least our second rounder if not a first out of cassel before draft time.

bring back sippio

We shouldn’t forget that there is a big difference between Randy Moss and Dwayne Bowe. Some of the numbers that Cassell have are as a result of having better receivers. Now, neither one of them will have Tony Gonzalez so it will be interesting to see how they will perform in the pre-season.

I also believe Cassel will start at QB. He’s smart, athletic, accurate, but not as mobile. The offensive line is the key to the Chiefs success, no matter who is QB. If Cassel has time to throw to the open man, he will be good, Very good… If Johnson & Charles are provided with a decent running lane, they will be good, Very good…
I really believe the offensive line will be better this year. I just feel it, Waters & Goff are seasoned veterans,they knows all the defensive linemans tricks, both physical & mental. I like Albert, his star will rise this year. The o-line is key to the Chiefs success. I don’t think anyone can argue intelligently that the o-line is not an improvement from last year.
That being said, If we can’t run the ball when needed & we have to pass consistently 2 out of 3 downs, Thigpen may have the edge due to his mobility skills.
The Chiefs will be a .500 team or better this year if… (here comes my wish list)

1, No 4th qtr. meltdowns
2, 25% Improvement on the O-line
3, 25% improvement on the D-line
4, Colquit & Succop (Barth)are among the NFL leaders
5, Decent kickoff & punt returner

With these improvements the rest of the team will fall into place. I think all of the above conditions are achievable. Anyone else?

CS,

Hows that the best scenario?? Our #1 QB injured.

my best scenario, Cassel strives and gets better by every game. No QB is going to be great and at the top of the league this year on this team, but can be very good and way better than last year. Thig will remain our #2 and will be a damn good #2

Cassel will start and be in it for the entire year, know matter if he does stink at times.

Why?

14 million…..
gave up draft pick for him…..
Pioli aquired him….., and Scott would look stupid if thiggy did start at the beginning of season.

ect, ect. but just my opinion

Jimbo,

You left out the one area on offense that I think is a huge question mark, that’s the Wide Outs. Chiefs gotta have at least two guys who can get open and catch the ball consistently. Throw in a decent Tightend too, one that can be relied on for a couple first downs when in a pinch.

Why has everyone already written off Kolby Smith? He may not have Charles’ speed, but he’s a more versatile back and if he can get healthy, should be a great weapon.

I haven’t written any of the Backs off, I think that’s the deepest position on the team. Smith was the best Back on the team at catching the ball outta the backfield, he’s got game! But I have my doubts that Smith will be ready to go before mid season.

Well, I may be an incurable optomist, but I think things will be considerably better this year than last.
My reasoning? We have two capable QB’s of about equal ability. They have plusses and minuses, but on the whole about equal.
The trade of Gonzales will turn out to be a good thing, as I think his presence was a hindrance to the development of the other receivers. Yes, I know this is heresy, but I think having that big, ol’ security blanket kept the QB’s from even attempting to throw to the others. With him no longer in the picture, I think some of the other receivers will get opportunities they didn’t get last year. Plus, with Haley as head coach, the receivers will get some position coaching that might elevate their game to a higher level.
Of course, we won’t know until the season actually starts, and it’s all nothing but conjecture and opinion at this point. But it will be entertaining, no matter what the outcome!

I agree with the knock on thigpen being his accuracy. Let me take it a step further. Thigpen is connecting in the low 50s in the SPREAD offense. A huge chunk of those passes are no more than glorified hand offs. QBs in that system should have an inflated completion percentage, not the other way around. For his to be as low as it was speaks volumes.

I believe Cassel has everything needed to be a star, including mentally.

Thigpen, doesnt.

However, I love Thigpen in the wildcat, quite often too.

I just believe Cassel as that “it” factor of getting it done in the clutch, and also is just a natural born leader.

Brodie Croyle is better than matt

JB–I also remenber Tony getting called at critical times for holding(resulting in penatlies when the play just made huge result’s )after the opposing team had jumped the REF’s at the start of the game, pointing to T.G. as a big problem.
I remember twice(once in the inzone) he no more than barely touched the defenders Jersey with his finger tips. Of course Herm just stood there—nothing!
That’ what good about Todd—HE would not put up with that crap, most REF’s know this!

Tracy—YES

OH–that endzone boob that Herm didnt raise a finger over, ended in a field goal and Chief’s lost to a close game. Maybe some will remember that catch, when Tony went way up and caught the ball with his finger tip’s, he brushed his left forefinger on a def.jersey after he was in the air, off the ground, the deffender was clearly not going for the ball.
Name one–just one out of 31 coaches that would put up that?

My son would

My son won gold in the Special Olympics!!!

I like both of these guys. I think the O-Line will be servicable, but aggrivating on occasion. I think the wide outs, under Haley, will find a way to bring their game up a notch. It has been said that Haley doesn’t like to throw to his TE’s much, so I don’t think they will be much of a factor as revievers. However, if he leave’s one or two TE’s on the field as blockers, that would help our O-Line manhandle defense’s. I agree with the statement above that said our RB’s are a deep postion. Extremely early to call, but I would say our offense will be middle of the pack. Probably a stretch of the imagination, considering the difficult schedule that lies in wait.

All of that may not matter with the Defense influx.

I’ll concede that Cassel had more talent to work with last year. That is pretty obvious. However, the Pats didn’t make the playoffs so it’s not like they were an elite team by any stretch of the imagination. I have to keep coming back to the W-L record (not to mention completion percentage and passer ratings). I know it’s not all on the QB, but Thigpen had his chances to get the job done and he didn’t…again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and aga…oh wait, he did beat the Raiders.
One of the things that Cassel brings (just like Pioli and Haley) is hope. Thigpen brings more of the same…a guy who tries really hard, but just can’t get it done.
While the difference between the two may not be huge…there is a difference. Tyler, thanks for trying so hard, but keep your ball cap and clip board handy.

Do some of you even read the articles before posting?

Things evolve… roll with it bro.

I’m disappointed with the way my son turned out.

I did not read the Happy Birthday part. Sorry, Bert and Curley.

My son Rin’s dad invented the ‘Special Olympics’. His nose is also longer than Pinocchio’s.

Cue yet more Elton John paraphrases several new ‘fake’ Rin’s - mi gente adores He that be me.

” Green eyes….’fake’ Rin’s all got (HUGE) green eyes.”

Adulation, devotion, all bow down to real Rin who rules Chiefs nation!

heh heh heh

That’s my boy! Extra chromosome and all!!!

Of course I’m a enunch and always have been. So was my dad. But not my mom.

Of course I’m a eunuch and always have been. So was my dad. But not my mom.

JB there is a lot of truth about Tony G. I doubt any team became dominate for years with TE being the only all pro receiver. The great play of Tony probably contributed as much as anything to the consistant lack of post season play for the Chiefs. We got to watch one of the best TE of any era but missed every chance at the golden ring.

Many commented on the OL. Goff is at the end of his career, should be a “reliable” backup not an answer. C, TG, and RT are sub standard and for some reason Pioli/Haley chose to ignor those position except for Goff and C from Cin. Both have one thing in common, their previous team did not want them.

I have already pound on the WRs enough. Finally once again,like carl/herm, Pioli/Haley left TONS of money in the bank rather than get any first string free agents. Not saying that is totally accurate but it seems that way.

Thigpen vs Cassel great news!

The way I see it is that we have two young quality QBs to grow with this young team instead of what we have had. It will create a solid competition for the position and may the best man win! The other one will be a great backup waiting for his chance.

It’s funny…both QB’s are proven in what they have accomplished in each of their given situations, but, at the same time, not.

Cassel had a line, a great coach, and great talent around him.

Thigpen had a chaotic team, and an extremely cautious coach, but in that he was encouraged to run, and hit old faithful, Tony G.

I don’t believe Thigpen is your prototypical quarterback, while Cassel is. However, they both seem game enough to try to prove that, and I definitely won’t take that away from Thigpen.

All in all, I believe we are in a great situation. The Chiefs don’t have to give Cassel an extensive contract. If I was the boss, I would start Cassel, keep Thigpen, and evaluate Cassel’s performance with the new regime and that will dictate how much he is really worth.

We’ve seen what Thigpen can do, I want to see what Cassel will do with Haley and the Chiefs. Just my opinion.

Go CHIEFS!

I said this a while ago and I still believe it holds true. If Joe Montana would have come out of Coastal Carolina, and had been thrown into the mess of last year he may not be “Joe Montana”. Thigpen stepped into a mess and did AMAZINGLY well for a rookie. I think we have no idea of his potential with a decent offense. I think Thiggy should get a good shake. I was dissapointed when Cassell came in and Thiggy was basically dismissed as a possible started. His story was really awesome to that point and his story got stolen with the signing of Cassel. That being said I think it will be good for the Chiefs to have Cassel. I think that it’s possible that Thigpen needs things to be out running around, and for things to be falling apart to really be in his element. But if he has as much potential as he showed last year, we may be passing on a GREAT quarterback.

All the fake Rin Tin Tin’s left torn asunder;
Mighty scribe real Rin daily they He doth plunder.
All the fake blogging falls victim His flogging
Can’t hang with His genius they be heterogeneous.

heh heh heh

not sure why its needed to have rin then rins dad then rins therapist, but rin, that last little thread you made….plunder, flogging, cmon….its ridiculous to say the least, just as ridiculous as your green eyes

You arent a genious because you use a different way of speaking, if I spoke in pure 1700’s tongue, i woulnt be smarter, just would come off as an idiot.

Cassel benefited from great recievers but lacked a good running game, that’s why he threw several 400 yard games at the end and at other points late in the season. I believe most announcers said the Patriots had a suspect line which is why they had trouble running the ball and protecting the passer. Sounds like the Chiefs problem from last year too. I too am a little disappointed that the Chiefs have not signed more top players to come in and fill out the roster. My hope is that they are waiting to see who gets cut later in the year to get some good pick ups during training camp. I suppose I am always optimistic at this time of year, it’s just what keeps me going, having hope!

“Green eyes, alex k (one of many fake Rin’s) has… green eyes.”

heh heh heh

I think Thigpen’s the slightly better player for now and the future and I wouldn’t have traded for Cassel. But they did, so he should be and will be the starter, with the added, unforseen benefit of getting Cutler out of the division, that the trade created. I think it’s important Haley make that declaration sooner than later. As the great Parcell’s said, when you have 2 QB’s, you have no QB’s. QB controversies are the worst thing a team can have. I think Haley knows that, certainly Pioli does, so I hope the decision is made quickly and decisevely.
The Pats had the same line which Brady made look like a good line. The sacks were largely Cassel’s fault, as he just held onto the ball too long, and he’ll have to improve sharply in that area to become an effective NFL starter. That’s one area Thigpen is light years better than Cassel in.

The fact that Thigpen didn’t get sacked as much as Cassel is also largely because he tucked and ran with it when he got in trouble. That can be good because you don’t take the sack, but he also did it prematurely sometimes and thus didn’t allow a possible route to develop.
Im excited to see what Cassel can do, as I think he is better leader than Thigpen, and he has a better arm. Thigpen missed too many throws last year, that cost us alot of drives.
It may sound like Im comming down hard on thiggy, but really I love the fact that he is a chief!
I just don’t want people to put him up on a piedestal, he has a long way to go too.
He really benefitted from having Gonzo to throw it too, noone is better at shielding the ball from the DB’s than Tony, which is why a ball thrown within his reach rarely gets picked off. No one can get around that big body.
Im just hoping Cassel can reproduce some of the things he did with NE, and he really does need to let go of the ball faster. he can’t keep taking that kind of punishment year after year.

We are extremely lucky to have two young exciting QB’s on our roster, so many other teams have QB’s that are either “has been’s” or extremely inconsistent.

Go chiefs!

This was a great article. Good comparison between both quarterbacks. Both of these guys have their flaws but I don’t think one guy is that much better than the other. Cassell will get his shot first, but if this team falters early and Cassell takes alot sacks here in Kc Thigpen will get his shot. I definately think Tyler has alot of upside because of how successful he was with limited reps in last offseason and far inferior talent then what Cassell had in New England. Either way its going to be fun to watch this season unfold.

Did anyone look at how many balls Bowe did catch last year, it’s not like he didn’t get his share of balls thrown his way. Maybe that Tony caught a majority of his passes it looked as though thigpen was only throwing to him, but sh*t if I was a QB and had someone who would catch everything I would throw thats who I would throw the ball to also!!! Look at Fitzgerald last year he was getting a majority of balls his way because he was catching everything, thats why Boldin was PO’d he was getting thrown too..

Haley is a fatso

The bottom line is, my friends, even though Tyler had some highlights last season, he struggles (or at least struggled)in a pro style offense. Cassell can work out of the spread, or pro style. For that reason alone, you have to go with Cassell as the starter. However, if the O line does not gel, and KC has to revert to the spread, get ready for TT deux.

Tyler Thigpen is hands down the better QB than NE’s Tom Brady stop-gap, Matt Cassel.

Matt’s not good, he’s not smart enough and doggone it, people (including Rin) don’t like him…